Thanks God that pronomian Christians and pro-Christ(p) Jews still exist
Lenny Wheeler Ishmael Abraham, I have noted your opinion, If your talking about the “God verses man posts," I would appreciate some facts.
Ishmael Abraham Jesus peace be upon him said: If you love me, keep my commandments. If you want to enter life, keep my commandments.
Peter Bell Ishmael Abraham Yes, he said that, and any one of us who have tried to do that has discovered the blessing of keeping his commandments.
Peter Bell It is also a common New Testament theme (after the Jesus narratives) that we do not have the power to keep those commandments by our own strength apart from his continual outpouring grace to empower us. We are not by nature loving, and we need to be transformed by His Spirit into loving beings in the image of Jesus. Peace to you!!
Ishmael Abraham I think Jesus peace be upon him never consumed alcohol. It was actually vinegar-like grape juice. The translators probably messed it up.
Jerry Sexton In my Baptist Church, we were taught that wine wasn’t fermented for the overall population. That was being taught in the 1970s, I don’t know if any archaeology has revised that information or not.
Peter Bell I have actually heard it both ways, but as far as I can see the majority of serious scholars disagree and believe that the wine Jesus used (and produced at the Cana wedding miracle) was robust, hearty, everyday alcoholic wine.
Peter Bell This strikes me as possibly being slightly off topic if we are discussing following Jesus by obeying his commands.
Lenny Wheeler How could anybody even think in the slightest, that Jesus Christ would drink any alcohol period. Jesus is about life, Alcohol is about, pain, suffering, divorce, death, Sucicde. To think that Jesus would even drink one drink is horrable. There were two kinds of wine. grape juice is one, and fermented wine is another
Peter Bell Lenny Wheeler Alcohol in our culture has come to represent those negative things you mention, but it has not always been seen that way, and the people of the Bible often saw it as a gift from God to make our heart merry. The wine Jesus made at Cana certainly fulfilled this function. Many gifts from God can be abused and misused, but that doesn’t prove that he didn’t give them to us with our good in mind.
Lenny Wheeler Peter Bell My friend that is a nice opinion, The definition of words in the bible and the definition of the same words today are different. People didn’t need alcohol to be merry, Man has taken many of God’s words and perverted them, Gay, use to mean you were happy,, the rainbow is one of God’s promises to man that he will not flood the whole earth again. there are other things man has perverted. But for anyone to put Jesus Christ as drinking fermented wine doesn’t know his or her bibles. The ONLY reason for a person to say that Jesus drank fermented wine, gives them an excuse to continue there drinking. The wine at Cana was grape juice, If you or anybody else believe that Jesus turned water into fermented wine so He could watch them get drunk and make fools of themselves . you don’t know Jesus at all, and you don’t know your bibles
Jerry Sexton Lenny where in the Bible does it say that it was not fermented?
Peter Bell Lenny Wheeler Your assertion is incorrect and illogical and historically quite false. In fact, there are a large number of Bible scholars and Bible students who know the Bible a LOT better than you and I know it, and the FACT is that more than 90% of these serious, spiritual, believing Christian scholars are fully convinced that Jesus drank fermented wine, and that this is the meaning of the word used in the Bible. And the reason they believe this is NOT that they do not know the Bible, or that they don’t know Jesus! Many of them have given their lives to study the Bible, and in fact a significant number of them do not use alcohol themselves, but they are not ignorant enough or foolish enough or biased enough to believe that Jesus did not follow the universal cultural custom of his time and drink the fermented wine that was commonly available for the poor people (which he undeniably was, and with whom he identified himself). The only reason for anyone to deny that Jesus drank fermented wine is to justify their own self-righteous sense of superiority over common people by thinking they are better than these ordinary folks for whom Jesus sacrificed his life. The great sin Jesus preached against day by day was not alcoholism but hypocrisy.
Lenny Wheeler Peter Bell, I don’t go by mans opinions yours JESUS NEVER DRANK FERMINTED WINE.
Lenny Wheeler Jerry Sexton, there is a difference between NEW WINE, and OLD wine, one is fermented and the other is not. study for yourself my friend.
Peter Bell Lenny Wheeler But you do go by man’s opinions! That’s one right there. It’s man’s opinion, but it does not agree with what the Bible says. Read it for yourself, right here in your KJV: Matthew 11:18-19, where Jesus was charged with drinking fermented wine, and he never defended himself against the charges: “For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
Peter Bell I’m curious as to why this particular heresy is so important for you to defend.
Lenny Wheeler Peter Bell, Need to get one thing straight with you right know, Jesus Christ never drank alcohol, I also will ask you why you defend the idea that Jesus Christ supports alcohol .Looks like your looking for excuses , WHY? If your really looking for the truth then you would have noticed some very important words in Matthew 11:18-19, For John came “NEITHER" eating nor “DRINKING," and “THEY" say he has a demon. (19) The SON OF man came eating and drinking, and “THEY SAY," LOOK, a glutton and a winebibber, A friend of tax collectors and sinners! But wisdom is justified by her children.. 1Corinthians 6:9-11, (9) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of heaven of God? DO not be “DECEIVED", Neither fornicators, nor idolaters nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites. (10),Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor “DRUNKARDS," nor revilers, nor Extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (11) And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the spirit of our God. there was to be a marriage at Cana, A little town not far from Nazareth, The parties were relatives of JOSEPH and MARY; and Jesus, KNOWING of this FAMILY gathering, went to Cana, Not every marriage festivals were served with alcohol. Jesus knows the end from the beginning
Georgios Tzallas Ishmael Abraham Did you became a christian?
Peter Bell Lenny Wheeler My friend, you have not answered my question. I won’t go into so much detail, but I will state with great authority that the word translated “drunkards" in 1 Cor 9 does not mean a user of alcohol (which all men in Jesus’ day were, except …See more
Lenny Wheeler Peter Bell. NO, No we don’t go that route in this group my friend. All you have done is give me your opinions. We go by bible facts, like Ephesians 5:18, 1Peter 5:8, Proverbs 20:1, Galatians 5:21, Romans 13:13-14,Proverbs 23:29-35, 1 Corinthians 6:10, Romans 14:21. Hebrews 10:26-31. James 4:17, Luke 21:34, Romans 13:13.Proverbs 23:20-21,. . Maybe you get drunk and want to use Jesus as an excuse to keep drinking, you will have to go somewhere else. Maybe your god drinks fermented wine, but my God dose not drink fermented wine. Look back at my statement to you, you have not answered my questions. If you don’t like my answers, there is no one stopping you from leaving. NOBODY Like i said before maybe your god allows you to drink. but not my God. Don’t insulate my savior
Peter Bell Lenny Wheeler This is a post by Ishmael Abraham, who has full authority to allow us in or out at his discretion, and I fully respect his right to do so here. Your assumption that I get drunk and want to use any excuse for that is totally unwarranted, ignores the scientific and spiritual facts that I cited just above (that it takes far more grace to drink carefully and responsibly than it does to abstain totally), and is based on faulty psychology and sociology. You have your facts all wrong, and none of your opinions are confirmed in the slightest by any of those verses you quoted. I love the Bible and every verse you listed, but you are blaspheming the holy Word of God by using it to further your hateful humanist and oppressive legalistic pharisaical methods of Bible interpretation. Accusation of others without evidence or proof is the work of the accuser, called in the Bible Satan. Why do you think I get drunk? When did you send your spies in to look into my cupboards for liquor? You will not find it there. I will not need to leave my friend Ishmael Abraham’s group unless he asks me to do so. My motive is very simple: I wish to remove the obstacles to the perfect and pure and holy gospel of the unmerited grace of God that legalism such as what you preach places in the way of sinners seeking salvation in Jesus. Jesus does not hate sinners but loves them perfectly and chooses to spend his time with them. If you are identifying yourself as one who is too good to sin, you are distancing yourself from the living Jesus as revealed in the Bible and ruling in the kingdom of God. It does very much look like your god and mine are quite different, but I will take a God of grace and mercy and liberty over a legalistic god of condemnation and oppression every time. It is for freedom (not legalistic bondage) that Christ has set us free. With all due respect, you, sir, need to repent.
Peter Bell I anticipate that you will not like my reply here. I am quite willing to quit talking about this. But I will not yield to your foolish legalism, and I pray for your enlightenment into the truth by the revelation of the Holy Spirit. Have a good life.
Ishmael Abraham Quran 9:31 talks about worship of Bible scholars and rabbinic scholars. Some legalists end up being militant Zionists but I love Lenny’s passion here, because this is what defines Ishmaelite commandments.
Georgios Tzallas Ishmael Abraham ?
Ishmael Abraham I like Ebionite and Arian Christians, but I am a post-traditional anti-modern Abrahamite.
Georgios Tzallas You are not a muslim?
Ishmael Abraham I am a Muslim but not in denominational sense.
Ishmael Abraham Muslim means someone who keeps the commandments revealed to the Ishmaelite Messenger of God(p).