A spiritual Ishmaelite

The eleven Imams(as) led quietist lives except Imam Ali(as) and Imam Husain(as). However Imam Zayd(as) led a revolution. So, Zaydi Shias had the most martyrs in Muslim history yet they have a moderate theology of love of both Prophetic family and four Righteous Caliphs.

Hussain Murtaza It’s not about moderation, it’s about purity. Zaidis don’t have a proper system of Imamat. Many of their Imams in Yemen have been brute savages.

Ishmael Abraham For example which Imam was a brute savage?

Hussain Murtaza Read the history of Zaidi Imams in Yemen.

Hussain Murtaza Imam Ahmad bin Yahya of the 1950s was a tyrant.

Hussain Murtaza Why are you not condemning the Saudi led war of aggression against Yemeni Zaidis?? Iran is supporting them there

Ishmael Abraham Twelvers are bigger tyrants. Safawis burnt the dead body of Abu Hanifah. Iran is with Yemen not because they love Zaydis but because they oppose Saudia. Otherwise, Majlisi has called Zaydis kuffar.

Hussain Murtaza Do you condemn the Saudi war against Yemeni Zaidis.?

Hussain Murtaza Where did Majlisi declare Takfir upon Zaidis?

Hussain Murtaza Shah Ismail Safavi was a Nuseri, not a twelver.

Ishmael Abrahamأقول كتب أخبارنا مشحونة بالأخبار الدالة على كفر الزيدية ( بحار الأنوار / المجلسي /باب 49 نادر في ذكر مذاهب الذين خالفوا الفرقة المحقة في القول بالأئمة الاثنى عشرية)

Hussain Murtaza You are quoting Majlisi from a third party. Writing about signs of kufr doesn’t mean an emphatic Takfir.

Ishmael Abraham Bihar Al Anwar is not third party and he clearly uses the word kufr.

Ishmael Abraham Not signs of kufr.

Hussain Murtaza Ah so this a direct quotation from Bihar ul Anwar. Let me see.

Hussain Murtazaبالأخبار الدالة

Ishmael Abraham These reports prove.

Hussain Murtaza The quotation looks like a third party quoting from Bihar ul Anwar.

Ishmael Abrahamأقول means I the Majlisi say

Hussain Murtaza In Haqul Yaqin, Majlisi has clearly stated that non Shia claimants of Islam, are legally accepted as Muslims till the reappearance of our Imam. But in principle the act of deliberately rejecting the Wilayah of the Infallible Imams of Ahlul Bayt is akin to kufr, just like tark e Salah is kufr according to the message of Hadith, legally declaring Takfir is different.

Hussain Murtaza However, a Zaidi Imam who claims infallibility, becomes an infidel.

Ishmael Abraham Imam Zayd called to himself too. Quran says those who ulama who do jihad are superior to those who do not.

Hussain Murtaza Shias have always accepted non Shia claimants of Islam legally as Muslims, check the correspondence between Hilli and Ibn Tammiyah.

Hussain Murtaza Still you didn’t condemn the Saudi war against Zaidis.

Ishmael Abraham My sympathies are with orthodox Zaydis not Jarudis.

Hussain Murtaza Jarudis were the earliest Zaidis to carry out an active struggle against Bani Ummayah and Bani Abbas, whom else do you consider Orthodox Zaidis?

Ishmael Abraham Imams(as) called Abu Jarud a blind Shaytan sarhub who lived in the sea.

Hussain Murtaza Which group of Zaidis was actually condoned by Twelver Imams?

Ishmael Abraham All Imams(as) loved revolt of Imam Zayd(as). Jarudis are minority, the majority are still moderate.

Hussain Murtaza If Yemeni Zaidis are a minority, then where are the majority Zaidis of today?

Hussain Murtaza I am not talking about Zaid himself, did the Imams condone Sulaymanniyah?

Ishmael Abraham I think they are more than 10 million.

Hussain Murtaza Where??

Ishmael Abraham Suleymaniyyah call Uthman(r) kafir so they are not Muslims.

Hussain Murtaza The Imams didn’t endorse any Zaidi group.

Ishmael Abraham Imams(as) did not endorse Usulis and Akhbaris too